From: Zed 
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Jesse Tapes: Jesse Prince on OT8
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 05:11:14 +1100
Message-ID: <>


I've finished reading the transcripts of the Jesse Prince tapes.
There's a lot to digest in there, but I wanted to focus on one single
issue: OT8. Here are excerpts of the transcript in which Jesse
details his claims about OT8.
- ---------

J: Right. And I even read, and I've listened to those Philadelphia doctoral course tapes, quite a bit. And yes, it goes into that, how horrid religion is. And then what shocked me is when that damn OTVIII came up. Now people don't realize there are different versions of that OTVIII. There's one version that one person saw that was just a one-page thing that kinda gave some prophecies. And what they saw was obviously incomplete. But I was there in the Church when they did the whole thing with the -- what am I saying, church? -- Scientology -- when they did the whole thing with the compilation of the original OTVIII, how they screen people so hard, when they got the ship about that other stuff. And then they issued something on OTVIII, which I never saw myself but I do know that the first people that did OTVIII, within the first three and half months, those materials were gotten away and they were changed, and they were issued again because there was a big problem with what people were reading.

Now, I had a personal conversation with David Miscavige about this. He didn't want to tell me specifically what was in the pipe but he told me there was some information in there that was very startling and very rude that may very well upset people considerably. This was before OTVIII was that first thing. So he told me there was something very bad in there that he was trying to grapple with. He had uncertainty and was like, "God, I don't even know if I want to say this." OK, and then it came out that some people were horribly upset. I mean, horribly upset.

L: Do you know any of the first OTVIII people that did the original OTVIII before they changed it?

J: Not really. I just remember, a man, a European man that was a complete basket case from the ship and I know that a lot of the people, not a lot of the people but it had had many complaints about that and then when they changed it, it smoothed out.

Now, I'm gonna give my theory about that. The very first issue that came out was one of these representations that I have since seen out of the Church, where L. Ron Hubbard goes into this whole thing about how he is Satan, how he had a part in all of this, in the Book of Revelations. Then there's other ones that don't say that he is Satan but say something else, but what is common amongst all the OTVIII documents that I have seen is the slander of Jesus Christ, being a pedophile, a lover of little boys, and a slander on religion. So even if you minus the controversy about whether or not L. Ron Hubbard said he was Satan, there's other threads that run through all the documents that are common that makes it obvious who he thinks he is and what he thinks about Jesus Christ. And on one hand denies it ever happened and then on the other hand, said he's a pedophile.


L: So, he himself, the head of Scientology, was visibly upset by the content of the original OTVIII?

J: Yeah, he was shaking his head like, "Man, I don't even know if we can put this stuff out."

L: Let me just bring something up here. So, there were two OTVIIIs. The first one was released to a group of people over three and half months, and people were freaking out and reacting very, very badly to it.

J: Right.

L: Then another version came out.

J: Without fanfare.

L: They didn't announce a change.

J: No!

L: People didn't know that they'd gone from one OTVIII to another.

J: Right. It was just like revised, you know. Just some corrections and I believe that that part was then stripped out. Because it became more palatable.

L: Kind of secretly revised and then the new version came out.

J: Right. Right. Without fanfare.

L: Nobody knew, except maybe the CS, Miscavige-

J: And the people that were directly involved on the ship and maybe someone who had done it earlier. You know, they got that patched up, but it was done in such a way, it was like, "Damn it. We knew it before we released it and now it's happened. Let's clean it up.

L: And Bob Mithoff was the one who wrote this

J: Ray Mithoff.

L: Ray Mithoff, from L. Ron Hubbard's notes, allegedly.

J: Pat Broeker was involved in it, too.

L: Pat Broeker was involved.

J: David Miscavige was involved.

L: Involved in it, so --

J: Those were the three people that were involved, and maybe Jeff Walker.

L: Is there anyone that you could think of, other than Broeker and Miscavige and Jeff Walker, who would be able to look. There's a document, the original OTVIII, that's been circulated, that talks about Hubbard saying he's the Antichrist, that Lucifer's really misunderstood, that document. Is there anybody other than those people who could verify that possibly that document is what everyone claims the original OTVIII before it was altered, which Scientology wildly denies, that the OTVIII is anything like that? Well, maybe they're denying it because they changed the document.

J: Right.

L: There, there are people who have left Scientology who had access to it, and they won't surface and name themselves. They're terrified.

J: Yeah. It's a terrifying thing. When you gave me this, I felt sick.

L: And they stated that this was the original OTVIII.

J: The one with the Antichrist stuff in it?

L: Yeah.

J: Well, then that goes along with what I told you.

L: But that's what they said, that they will not surface out of fear and publicly name themselves as being aware that this was the document that they were there

J: I've seen a man that said he wanted nothing else to do with Scientology, a European man. He said, "Fuck Scientology." He was like upset.

L: You mean, a guy who had gone all the way up to OTVIII and saw the document and decided that--

J: Freaked out.

L --freaked out and decided to leave Scientology.

L: That document does have the content that would do that to someone.

J: It has severe impact.

L: If you think of anyone who can verify that document, who could've or would've seen the original document before they changed OTVIII. Most people theorized they changed OTVIII. You're the first person that has ever verified it, that there were two OTVIIIs.

J: I'm not even verifying it because I said I can't give you this or that. I just tell you what I saw, what I've seen. I've lived the history when this was happening.

L: OK.

J: But because I wasn't finished with OTVII, I wasn't privy. Of course, David Miscavige wasn't either, but that's neither here nor there. He's the issue authority over anything in the church. Because I talked to him about this. We discussed this. I said, "Well, I want to see it." He said, "No, you can't see it. And I have to see it because I'm issue authority. I don't want to see it either." That's how we engaged in the conversations, like, "Man. What's in here is gonna blow people's minds." He was like, "It blew my mind." It wasn't like a happy thing. It was like, "Man! We've never had anything like this before."

L: He had an intense reaction to it.

J: Very intense reaction. He didn't even want nothing to damn do with OTVIII was the feeling I got from him. It's like, "This is a mistake" or "This is beyond anything even I would have thought of, to now put this on the public." This is what I'm now feeling from him.

L: Did he say anything to that nature?

J: He just said, "I don't know what's gonna happen when we put this out." He was hesitant.

L: Right.

J: He did not want to do it.


L: When you looked at the OTVIII document that is being circulated outside of Scientology as the original real OTVIII, the one people suspect they probably changed, did that look a real Scientology document?

J: No, because it had way too typos in it and grammar problems and stuff like that. It looked like something that someone was saying from their memory.

L: OK. So it didn't have the same form and everything else as the original.

J: You know, it kinda did, but you could tell obviously it's not an original because they very seldom, I mean, they had proofreaders and correct and check all that stuff.

L: There were too many typos.

J: Way too many. There were about 56.

L: OK.

J: But the information contained therein, let us not invalidate that. I think it was probably more than one person that got together, unless somebody was sneaking away with notes, because I know the security of that ship and I know how difficult it is, or was, to get anything whatsoever out of there. They went through your briefcases, everything, so there was no way to take a camera in there ot to steal something. So I know that that information is just based on memory.

L: Memory.

J: Yeah. But that's not to be invalidated.

L: So in other words, that document could have been constructed by one or more people from notes and memory as best they could or what they read.

J: Exactly, right. Exactly. And that's exactly what it appears to be.

L: OK. You have looked at enough copyright documents in Scientology to know if it's a real Scientology piece or not, generally?

J: Generally, yes. I wouldn't say absolutely but generally, yes.

- -----------

Got all that? I should mention that the date listed on this transcript is August 27, 1998 - a little over a week before he posted anything about OT8 on the Net. Independant corroboration of the claims in this transcript would probably be close to impossible, unfortunately. But at least I have more detail on Jesse's claims about OT8.


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